The reply to forbid not to speak with tongues
Claim examined: Faith, grace, and obedience
Scriptural Answer
Part 2: My name is [name omitted] and I am a member of the church of Christ… I just happened to come across your website at: http://www.chocd.org/pages/6/index.htm and would like to discuss some of the things that you state concerning the church of Christ… You say, “In dealing with this topic, you need to keep in mind that not all CHOCDs agree on this subject. So before you begin to witness to them about musical instruments, you need to find out where they stand on the issue. It would be easy to see why a person might ask, "What's the big deal if they have musical instruments, anyway?" Well in reality, it is no big deal, to you or me, but it is to them.” We will see if you are able to prove that it is “no big deal” and if it is a “big deal” to God… You say, “Such a big deal, in fact, that they say if you do have musical instruments in the worship service, then your worship is PAGAN!” No, not “pagan” just unscriptural and without authority from God… You say, “This is also another area where we get a glimpse of the schizophrenia that so often accompanies this type of legalism.” You have not proven that those who adhere to the doctrine of worship to God without instruments of music are guilty of “schizophrenia” much less that we are “legalists”… I am not a “legalist”… God said in 1 Corinthians 6:2, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" This is EXACTLY what I am doing. It is NOT wrong to judge, Jesus said in John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Psalm 149:5-9 states, "Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand , To execute vengeance on the nations, And punishments on the peoples; To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute on them the written judgment--This honor have all His saints. Praise the LORD!" This "two-edged sword" is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17). The word of God is what His saints use to judge the world. You say, “Because many of the same people that say it is evil to use musical instruments in worship to God in the church service, will use musical instruments to worship God at home! It's because they see some sort of invisible, nonexistent dichotomy between the church service, and everyday life. It's as though you act one way in church, and another way at home.” Just because someone uses musical instruments at home does not mean that they are using them to worship God… I can assure you that everything that we do is “not” worship to God… You say, “That might explain why in some CHOCDs, right after the worship service is over, and they've studied the Word, and taken communion, half the congregation heads for the back door to "have a smoke." This is especially true in the southern states.” I can assure you that no one in my congregation (and we are in one of the southern states) goes out the back door to “have a smoke”… You say, “Their main reason for outlawing musical instruments in the church service is because they say that it is not mentioned in the Bible. You may remember their slogan is, "We speak where the Bible speaks; and we are silent where the Bible is silent."” This is a true statement… Musical instruments are not listed as being used “in worship” in the New Testament… You say, “Unfortunately for them, ignorance is not bliss… it's just plain folly. Unbeknownst to them, the Bible very clearly does give us permission to have musical instruments in our worship to God, whether it's in a corporate worship service or in the privacy of our own home, car or wherever the Spirit might lead.” We will see if what you say is true… If it is a teaching of God, then you will have to be able to find somewhere in the New Testament where God has authorized it. There is NOT a single passage in all the New Testament mentioning instruments of music in the worship of God, let alone commanding that we use it in worship. Therefore, instruments of music in the public worship is a teaching of the doctrines and commandments of men. "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9). You say, “Ephesians 5:19 says "... speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs..." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "... admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." So Paul makes it clear that we are to sing "psalms," but which psalms? Obviously he is referring to the Psalms of David! And many of the Psalms say to worship God with musical instruments, such as Psalm 150. Also, many of the Psalms were directed by David to be accompanied by a musical instrument, such as a harp or lyre. We also see that the worship of God in heaven will also include musical instruments as found in Revelation 15:2,"They held harps given them by God."” In the Old Testament, God asked for singing + instrumental music for use in worship (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). It was something they could be sure about. In the New Testament, God just asks for singing (Ephesians 5:19) or the "fruit of lips" (Hebrews 13:15). Hence, singing was something that the worshiper could absolutely be sure about. After the church came into being and for at least 400 or so years, God was given just what he asked for (singing). As a result, the word "a cappella" came into being and was the term for "music in the church style." Before the New Testament was completed, the church used the Old Testament scriptures as their primary source (Acts 17:11; 18:28, etc.). They had the very scriptures before them that approved and encouraged the use of instruments right down to the naming of specific types (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). And at the time of the early church, instruments were available and many Christians had the talent to play them ... yet this talent was not exercised in worship! The Old Testament scripture was not followed. That instrumental music was absent from Christian worship during the days of the inspired Apostolic teaching (John 14:26; Acts 2: 42) proves that the Apostles, who were very familiar with the use of instruments in Temple worship, never encouraged churches to use them. The above also means that the Holy Spirit never encouraged churches to use instruments (John 14:26) in spite of the fact that it once did so in a direct way (2 Chronicles 29:25ff). Ephesians 5:19 has two parts: Singing + Making Melody. The "making melody" is translated from the Greek word "psallo." It means to "pluck or twang." The phrase that follows tells where this action takes place. It is "in the heart" and not on a harp. The design of the New Covenant worship will be different than that of the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31; John 4:23; Hebrews 7:12; 9:1, 9:10, 10:1). Many physical things of the Old pointed to their true substance in the New. For example, in the Old it was the priests that offered physical sacrifices to God, but in the New everyone is a priest with spiritual sacrifices to offer (1 Peter 2:5). It is specifically the "fruit of lips" that is the sacrifice of praise asked for (Hebrews 13:15) and not the sounds from man-made devices. Most things in the book of Revelation are symbolic, NOT literal and there is NO evidence the harps in heaven are literal. Should we take harps literally and put them in our worship service? I have yet to see a harp in any denominational worship service. It is simply amazing that when people like you Brian want to justify instruments in the worship of the NT church, you go everywhere EXCEPT to the instructions given to the NT church!!! You say, “But let's dig a little deeper into the actual definition of the word psalm. Most serious students of the Bible own a concordance. This is simply a reference book that lists all the key words and phrases in the Bible, in alphabetic order. The most commonly used concordance is called, "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible." It's approximately 1500 pages long. It also has a Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the back, where you can actually look up certain words in the Hebrew and Greek languages, which is what the Old and New Testaments were written in, respectively. If you were to take the time to look up the word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, you would find this definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm is "psallo" which means to means to twitch, twang or pluck.. such as pluck a string of a musical instrument. We even see this term used in this same context to this day: in the southern states, the old timers "psalm" (pick or pluck) cotton. Obviously, from its text and its definition, a psalm was normally accompanied with a musical instrument.” In the Old Testament, Levites were called to worship in the temple with instruments of music (2 Chron. 5:11-13, Ps. 81:1-3, 98:4-6, 149:2-3). In the New Testament, believers are called to worship in the Spirit with heart and lips (Heb. 13:15, Eph. 5:18-19, Col. 3:16). Much of the argument in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 7, Galatians 3, Hebrews 7-10) is in order to show that Old Testament ceremonial worship is ABOLISHED. There were many things in Old Testament ceremonial worship that were NOT a part of worship in the New Testament church. In the Old Testament ceremonial worship, there were: Images (Exod. 25:18-19, 36:8), Priests (Exod. 40:13-15), Incense (Exod. 30:8), Candles (Exod. 25:31), etc. All of these were given, as the New Testament informs us, as "a FIGURE for the time then present" (Heb. 9:9 - emphasis mine). They were "imposed" (by divine commandment) "until the time of reformation" (Heb. 9:10). They were "patterns of things in the heavens" (Heb. 8:5), which things now belong to us because of the finished work and present intercession of Christ (Heb. 9:24, 12:18- 24). You say, “Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of what happens when you establish your doctrines in haste! Can you find the words "musical instruments" in the New Testament? No. "Then let's keep them out of our worship!" But wait, Brother, doesn't the word "psalm" mean: "a song accompanied by a musical instrument?" Well, at this point they will choose their tradition over the Bible, because they don't want to be confused by the facts! And if you think that's bad, you should hear some of the straws (verses) they grasp at out of context, to buttress their erroneous conclusions. There are several examples we could cite that they wrongly claim substantiates their position against musical instruments in the worship of God, but for the sake of time, we will just look at the two most common. The first is what they call an "argument from silence." In reality it would better be described as a "straw man argument." What they say is that there were never any musical instruments used in the Temple worship, in the Old Testament. The reason that would be an issue to them is that they make a correlation between the Temple and the Church. Then you can point out that they are completely wrong in their assumption, by citing one of many scriptures, such as II Chronicles 5:12, which clearly shows musical instruments in the Temple. II Chronicles 5:11-14 took place at the dedication of the Temple: "The priests then withdrew from the Holy Place. All the priests who were there had consecrated themselves, regardless of their divisions. All the Levites who were musicians-Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives-stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets. The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the LORD . Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang: 'He is good; His love endures forever.' Then the temple of the LORD was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God." So we clearly see God sanction the use of musical instruments in worship by endorsing the proceedings by filling the Temple with His Glory.” In the Old Testament period, worship (except that which was performed by the priests and Levites at the temple in Jerusalem) was commonly offered without musical instruments. Worship in the ancient synagogue was always devoid of such. So was the worship of the early church. NEVER in the New Testament do we find mention of their (musical instruments) use. What we do find is an abundance of teaching to the effect that the whole system of tabernacle and temple worship (shadowy and typical in nature) has been ABOLISHED. It follows, therefore, that the use of musical instruments is NOT AUTHORIZED in the worship of the church today. Did God command Christians to WORSHIP God in the temple in the New Testament??? Scripture references please... What happened to temple worship in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed??? Was Paul sinning by not participating in this worship at Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed??? Why did the Jews say in Acts 6:14 that Jesus was going to destroy the temple and "change the customs" that Moses had delivered to them? The Christian Jews went into the temple to try and convert the Jews. (See Acts 5:20, Acts 5:25). Acts 5:42 states, "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ." I can assure you that the early Christians did NOT worship in the temple NOR did they participate in using instrumental music for the only reason the early Christians went into the temple was to preach the gospel of Christ. In Acts 8:19, Paul explains why he went into the synagogue he "reasoned with the Jews". This clearly proves that Paul did not go there to engage in WORSHIP. You say, “The CHOCD will usually then come back with the moot argument that "There were no musical instruments in the Most Holy Place." Well, there were no accapella singers in the Most Holy Place, either! This is why we refer to this as a "straw man argument." It's totally without merit. It doesn't prove anything, let alone their point!” I can assure you that I did not set up a “straw man argument”… You say, “Next, they usually will cite Amos 6:5, which they claim proves that musical instruments are evil. Rather than quoting the entire chapter here, please read all of chapter six of Amos and I'm sure you will immediately see the flaws in their logic. We see in these verses that God (through the Prophet, Amos) is pronouncing woes upon those "who are at ease in Zion." And one of the sins that they were committing was that they were "inventing musical songs and instruments, just like David." First of all, if it was a sin to invent songs or instruments "like David," then it would have been a sin for David to do it, too! But this chapter also refers to them "eating beef" and "lying down on beds of ivory." Are these sins, also? NO! It is just a list of things that they were doing that revealed their apathetic hearts. It wasn't because these things were evil, in and of themselves, but because that's all they did. They were more concerned with the pleasures of their daily lives than they were with doing God's will.” I won’t cite Amos 6:5… You say, “The funny thing about the CHOCD on this (or any other) issue is their bizarre bi-polar view of the Old Testament. As soon as you quote something out of the Old Testament, they are on you like stink on a skunk, saying, "That's the OLD Testament and we are not under the OLD Testament!" But two minutes later they quote the Old Testament to back up their position.” I don’t have a “bipolar view of the OT” as you assert… The OT is a reliable source for our LEARNING ONLY and NOT as our rule of faith and how we are to WORSHIP God today. Just because we are not under the OT as our rule of faith and how we are to worship God today does not mean that I “cannot quote the OT to back up my position”… You say, “So we see yet another example of how the CHOCD is willing to bend and stretch the Scriptures to fit their mold. But alas, anyone with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" can quickly detect counterfeit doctrine when faced with the authentic truth of God's Word.” God HAS SPECIFIED the kind of music He wants!!! Matthew 26:30 - "And when they had SUNG a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives." Acts 16:25 - "But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and SINGING hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them." Romans 15:9 - "and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: 'For this reason I will confess to you among the Gentiles; And SING to Your name'." 1 Corinthians 14:15 - "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding; I will SING with the spirit, and I will also SING with the understanding." Ephesians 5:19 - "Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING and making melody in your heart to the Lord," Colossians 3:16 - "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Hebrews 2:12 - "saying: 'I will declare your name to My brethren; in the midst of the assembly I will SING praise to You'." Note that EVERY passage specifies SINGING. By adding the instrument, men ADD to the word of God and violate His specific instruction. We are now under the "New Covenant" (Heb. 8:7-12). God has made the first Covenant obsolete (Heb. 8:13). Every example of music practiced by Christians was vocal. (Matthew 26:30, Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9, I Corinthians 14:15, Hebrews 2:12) Every command concerning Christians and music was a command to practice vocal music instead of instrumental music. (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16) The ONLY music commanded in the New Testament is vocal. It is a specific command, therefore it excludes all other kinds of music. No where in the New Testament does Christ, or an inspired man command the use of instruments of music. There is no command for its use in the church, there is no example of it being used by the church, there is no hint that it was used. So much for your “authentic truth of God’s word”… You say, “The issue should be dealt with graciously through the words of our beloved Apostle Paul, as he attempts to deal with a similar issue in Chapter 14 of his letter to the Romans. I encourage you to stop and read the whole chapter right now. Paul simply states that on nonessential issues, such as eating meat or celebrating holidays, please don't be judgmental. If you want to eat meat or celebrate a holiday as unto the Lord, then fine. But please don't judge your brother who seeks to abstain.” I can assure you that Paul was not speaking of “acceptable or unacceptable worship” in Romans chapter 14… You say, “And I'm sure Paul would say the same thing about musical instruments, especially when he already said they were permitted in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16! It is simply a personal preference. I have friends that attend churches that worship without instruments, and I say, "More power to you!" But the CHOCD says that if you include musical instruments in the worship of God, then your worship is Pagan (Godless)!” I can assure you that you do not speak for the apostle Paul nor does he say “the same thing about musical instruments as you falsely allege… Definition of the word psallo: Vine’s Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words: "In the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise” Thayer: "In the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song." NAS Lexicon: Please turn your attention to number 2. d.: 1. to pluck off, pull out 2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang a. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate b. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc. c. to sing to the music of the harp d. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song Yes, using instrumental music in worship is sinful… You say, “Now if Paul says not to judge your Brothers in non-essential issues, then the CHOCD is clearly overstepping their boundaries in this case. My suggestion to the CHOCD is to take the log out of your own eye... then you'll be able to read your Strong's Concordance better! Like we said earlier, no one cares if the CHOCD wants to leave out musical instruments in their worship, that is their prerogative. The reason that this issue is so egregious is because they judge and condemn everyone else who chooses to use musical instruments like David did and as the Apostle Paul instructed. The real issue then becomes legalism, which absolutely permeates their thinking.” The type of music used in worship is not “non-essential” as you assert… The word SING in Rom. 15:9; 1 Cor. 14:15; James 5:13, and MAKE MELODY in Eph. 5:19 are translated from the Greek word PSALLO. The word PSALM in 1 Cor. 14:26; Eph. 5:19; and Col. 3:16 is translated from the Greek word PSALMOS. Some Greek lexicons say that these words can mean to sing to the accompaniment of a harp. Some people argue that this authorizes the use of instrumental music in worship. The word PSALLO is consistently translated as SING or MAKE MELODY in your heart, and PSALMOS is translated PSALM or HYMN. Not one major English translation ever says SING WITH A HARP or any other expression that IMPLIES the use of musical instruments. From reading the English translations of the Bible, NO ONE would ever believe that instruments are included in the worship of the NT church if they weren’t already indoctrinated as such by their denomination for one CANNOT get this understanding by only reading the NT. If PSALLO and PSALMOS include the use of instruments, why don't the English translations state this as a fact that they are to be used in worship? The men who made these translations were members of churches that use instruments in their worship to God! If these words [PSALLO and PSALMOS] imply the use of instruments, why did these men NOT translate as such in order to defend their practice? These men knew by the time the NT was written and in the context of NT passages, the words PSALLO and PSALMOS did NOT and DO NOT refer to instruments!!! I challenge you to prove that I am a “legalist” as you assert… Brian, do you fear God? The Bible says: "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints," (Ps 89:7). Does this mean that we can do anything that we please when we worship God? Or is everything we do acceptable worship to God? I think not! Fear has to be taught (Deut. 4:10; 14:23; Ps 34:11). It is not casually absorbed. If one fears God, he has been taught to fear. Solomon sought the answer to the question of the purpose of life. After finding the emptiness of wealth, pleasure and wisdom, he concluded, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all" (Ecc. 12:13). The same writer said that we should be in the fear of God all day long (Prov. 23:17). God placed man on earth to fear him and keep his commandments. That means everything else is secondary to that. Our purpose and function in life is not to work and make a living. We work and make a living so we can live and serve God with fear. The Lord says that he will look on the one who "trembles at My word" (Isa. 66:2). David said, "My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments" (Ps 119:120). We ought to tremble in our boots at the thought of doing the things that displease God. Paul said that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:31). The reason is "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). One who can knowingly do wrong and not be bothered at all obviously doesn't fear God. We must DO what God says. While we do not live under the OT law (Gal. 3:24-25; 2 Cor. 3), books like Deuteronomy, which emphasize obedience to the law, serve to demonstrate the relationship of the fear of God to obedience. Notice that connection in the following passages: "that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you..." (Deut. 6:2). "Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him" (Deut. 8:6). "You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and shall keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him" (Deut. 13:4). "And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statues..." (Deut. 17:19). "If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord...." (1 Sam. 12:14). The one who fears God, will obey to the utmost as Abraham did in his attempt to sacrifice Isaac (Gen. 22:12). When God saw he was willing to go that far in obedience, he said, "Now I know that you fear God". This is obedience with no excuses, question or doubt. Moses told God's people at Sinai that God''s presence on the mount (the display of thundering, lightening, sounding of the trumpet and the smoke on the mountain) was to test them "that his fear may be before you, so that you may not sin" (Exo. 20:20). Thus, if one fears God, he will hate sin and cease the practice of it. The Psalmist said, "Because they do not change, therefore they do not fear God" (Ps 55:19). When people persist in sin and never change (whether an alien in the world or a supposed "Christian") the problem is they do not fear God. If one honors God, he will have the utmost respect for his word. Remember that Nehemiah described those among whom he worked (as he did himself) as those "who desire to fear...." Because of that fear they were attentive to Ezra as he read and explained the law (Neh. 8:2). They stood when Ezra opened the book in their presence (v. 5). If we fear God we too will hold the word in high esteem. We should view the Bible as the inspired word that came from the mouth of God (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 9:13). We should never forget that this is the book by which we will be judged in the last day (John 12:48). The way we refer to the word and the way we respond to it will reflect whether we respect it or not. Instrumental music is a tradition of men and falls into the same category as the Jews' washing traditions (Mark 7:1-13). The Bible does NOT in any way, shape, matter, or form authorize any kind of music for worship other than vocal music. The Bible ONLY authorizes singing. It does NOT authorize instruments of any sort. Now, if we are content with what is WRITTEN in the book of God then we will NEVER use instruments in our worship. You say, “As an example, many people outside of the CHOCD are not aware of the extremely legalistic CHOCD position on marriage. They teach: if you were married but your spouse runs off with another man or woman (and years later you remarry) they insist that in order for you to become a member of their denomination, you must divorce your current spouse and track down your first spouse and remarry her. If she refuses to remarry you, you then must remain single for the rest of your life!” No this is not “legalistic” as you assert… Jesus said in Matthew 19:9, “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” According to your doctrine, Jesus is a “legalist”… The apostle Paul said in Romans 7:2-3, “2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.” You say, “I received an e-mail the other day from a frantic and frustrated lady. Her 92 year old dad (Jerry) was dying. Someone from the CHOCD sent a preacher over to see him because, although he was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, he had not been baptized for the remission of sins. According to the preacher, Jerry was going to hell (although the old man had been a Christian for over 40 years). When the CHOCD preacher found out that Jerry's first wife had run out on him 50 years ago and that he had remarried, the preacher told him that "if he wanted to go to heaven," he would have to do TWO things: 1) Get re-baptized the CHOCD way 2) Divorce his second wife (of 45 years) and repent for remarrying. Never mind the fact that they had three children. Never mind the fact that the man wasn't even a believer when he remarried. Never mind... anything. Just do it! And the senile old man, infused with fear and doubt, divorced his wife of 45 years. When he died, she was left penniless and brokenhearted.” This is a classic case of whether or not someone wants to obey man’s laws or God’s laws… Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” You say, “The CHOCD preacher, on the other hand, walked away with his head high (and nose in the air) "knowing" he just saved that man's soul.” How do you “know” that he had his “head high” “and nose in the air”??? Can you prove your assertion??? You sure do a good job at making assertions… This man obeyed God and was saved… Shouldn’t you be rejoicing that one sinner was saved??? God says in Luke 15:10, “Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” You on the other hand just castigate this gospel preacher who admonished this man to repent of his sins and obey the gospel because he chose to obey God instead of man… You say, “Many people outside of the CHOCD are shocked to hear the convoluted "logic" in this hyper-legalistic perspective.” Many people also have no desire to be saved… And would rather die a sinner rather than obey what God has specified one must do in order to be saved… God says in Matthew 7:14, “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” You say, “Remember, LEGALISM KILLS (II Corinthians 3:6)! It's a cancer than knows no bounds. You start out with a legalistic approach to any spiritual issue and eventually everything you do is out of fear. You develop a "better safe - than sorry" perspective on life. You start thinking that God is out to get you. He is watching you, just waiting for you to step out of line so He can squash you like a bug! Perfection ceases to be just a goal, it instead becomes a mandate. "If I want God to love me, I MUST be perfect." Sounds an awful lot like Mormonism. Which should not come as a surprise, because legalism is the main ingredient in every cultic organization. "It's my way, or the highway (to hell).” Please explain what “legalism” and what “letter” is it that Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 3:6 that “kills”??? It is NOT legalism to call for obedience. See John 14:15… We demonstrate our love to Christ by obedience and not lip-service. In order to please our Lord, we must keep His commandments. Unfortunately, many on judgment day will be in the category of those who have called Jesus Lord, Lord and did NOT do the things that He said. (See Matthew 7:21-27). Jesus said in John 14:21, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." If we keep the Lord's commands out of love, then God will in turn love us. It was God who first loved us that He gave us His Son. Jesus said in John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." God has already stated what He considers acceptable worship and it is our job to do what He says. You say, “Most believers are willing to tolerate a certain level of legalism. Some folks would say that I am legalistic about a few things. Each person has to determine where to draw the line. Some Christians say that you should be in church every time the doors are open, "At least Sunday morning and Sunday and Wednesday night!" If the Scriptures stated that as a standard, then I would agree. But cultural norms and human traditions should not be elevated to the same level of authority as the Bible.” If the elders mandate that there will be a service on Sunday morning, Sunday evening and Wednesday evening, then everyone is obligated to attend all of these services for it is written in Hebrews 13:17, “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” You say, “In Matthew 15:7-9, Jesus said, "You nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.” Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees when He said that. They were the legalists of His day. I would venture to say that He would say the same thing to the CHOCD: "You nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.” Really Brian??? Which “tradition” or “teaching” am I guilty of using that nullifies the word of God??? Please be specific how I “nullify the word of God” in your reply… You say, “Once again, there are various positions on this issue within the CHOCD, but this is probably their most grievous error. Because it goes way beyond just rejecting the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, as recorded in I Corinthians chapters 12-14. It also includes the rejection of His "enduement of power." Jesus said in Acts 1:4-8 that He would "baptize them in the Holy Spirit" and they would "receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you." And we see the fulfillment of this promise on the day of Pentecost. Peter said in Acts 2:39, that the promise of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for every believer, for "as many as the Lord our God shall call!" In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus had also promised that the miraculous would follow those that believed, in Chapter 16, verse 17. Jesus promised in John 14:16, that the Holy Spirit "would be with us FOREVER!" Paul said in Romans 11:29 that, "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."” Holy Spirit baptism was NEVER a command, ONLY a promise. (Matthew 3:11). Holy Spirit baptism NEVER saved anyone. There are ONLY two examples of Holy Spirit baptism. The first was on the day of Pentecost (To give power to the apostles) and the second was at Cornelius house (To show that Gentiles were accepted by God). The purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was to; 1) Usher in the Kingdom (Mark 9:1) 2) Bestow miraculous powers upon the Apostles (Acts 1:8) and to; 3) Bring the Gentiles, as well, into the Kingdom (Acts 10:45) and that is ALL. Holy Spirit baptism was ONLY given to Cornelius and his household to convince the Jews that the Gentiles had a right to the gospel and NOT for salvation. (Acts 15:8-11). You say, “he only verse that they can even attempt to take out of context to uphold their dispensational outlook is I Cor. 13:10, that states at some point in time ("when that which is perfect comes") the miraculous will be done away with. They believe "that which is perfect" was the canonization of the Scriptures. But when you read this statement in context, you see that it couldn't be what or when they say it is. First of all, the Apostle Paul virtually tells us when it would happen, in verse 12, by telling us what would transpire at the arrival of "that which is perfect." He says, "For NOW we see in a mirror dimly, but THEN we will see face to face; NOW I know in part, but THEN I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known".” Brian, I can assure you Holy Spirit baptism doesn't exist today, and there are no more apostles. Spiritual gifts were for the church in its infancy. They were called childish things that would be put away when the church became mature. Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child...But when I became a man (mature) I put away childish things". Speaking of the miraculous gifts, that in verse 8 "will vanish away" and in verse 9 "will be done away". The only way the church could become complete (mature) was through ALL Scripture . (2 Tim. 3:16-17). The complete (perfect) law of liberty. (Jas. 1:25). In the years following the establishment of the church, the will of God had not been fully revealed, written and confirmed by miracles. It was yet in part!!! The sole purpose of miracles was to CONFIRM the newly revealed work. (John 20:30-31). Once all scripture was given by inspiration of God, confirmed and written, it became the COMPLETE (PERFECT) Law of Liberty, able to make the man of God Perfect (Complete), thoroughly furnished unto every good work. (2 Tim. 3:17). Since we now have that which is "perfect" (1 Cor. 3:10), that which is Complete Mature, Confirmed word of God, in which are "all things that pertain to life and Godliness" and by which we can become Complete (Mature) as Christians, there remains NO NEED for gifts today. They have served the purpose for which they were intended!!! People like you Brian who claim Holy Spirit baptism and miraculous gifts today obviously do so WITHOUT Biblical support. You are a PRETENDER and a FALSE CLAIMANT of something that DOES NOT EXIST. You knowingly or unknowingly arrogantly place yourself on an equality with the apostles. You say, “To prove that the miraculous didn't cease at the canonization of the Scriptures, all you have to do is plug their theory into verse 12, every time Paul says the word THEN. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but THEN, at the canonization of scripture (300 AD), we will see face to face; now I know in part, but THEN, at the canonization of scripture, I shall know fully as I also have been fully known." The term "face to face" was used in Paul's day (as it is in our day) as a very literal term. At the canonization of scripture, who or what did Paul see "face to face?" At the canonization of scripture, how did the Apostle Paul grow in knowledge? He had been in Heaven for over 200 years! The fact of the matter is that when Paul referred to "that which is perfect" he was simply referring to the second coming of Christ, or when we would go home to glory, whichever came first. Will you gain knowledge when you get to heaven? Absolutely! Will you see anyone (Jesus, for example) "face to face?" Undoubtedly! So this verse is obviously a very precarious place to hang one's hat in an attempt to prove that the miraculous workings of God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, have ceased!” The reason the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT were given, to CONFIRM THE WORD. SPIRITUAL GIFTS have ceased, because NO ONE can take up serpents without getting KILLED, NO ONE can drink any deadly thing without getting KILLED, and NO ONE can hands on the sick and make them WELL. Holy Spirit baptism is nothing but a figment of man's imagination and you have been deceived. There is ONE passage which completely puts to rest your false doctrine of Holy Spirit baptism and that is where the Eunuch asked to be baptized in water after Philip preached Jesus unto him. (Acts 8:35-39). Sorry, Holy Spirit baptism does not fit here, so it is false doctrine. Remember, there is only ONE baptism. (Ephesians 4:5). Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in "something," and a "being raised" from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if water baptism is in view. On the other hand, if the "Spirit" is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently "raised from" the Spirit. This would imply further that the new convert would not have the Spirit, and therefore, would not belong to the Lord (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6). This conclusion obviously is wrong - thus demonstrating that the element of the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 is not the Holy Spirit. By default, it must be water baptism. The word "perfect" means "complete" or "whole." The phrase, "that which," indicates the word "perfect" refers to something, not someone. Yet, some apply this to Jesus Christ. They say these miraculous gifts were designed to continue until the Lord comes again. Since the Lord has not come again, they believe the gifts of the Spirit continue. This cannot be true. Paul did not write "when He who is perfect has come." He said "that which is perfect." Paul's words do not fit the context if we apply them to Jesus. Also, we must remember that the word "perfect" literally means "complete" or "whole." It does not refer to sinless perfection, but to maturity, or completion. That is its meaning in the original language of the New Testament. In I Corinthians 13, the completion of the New Testament is under consideration. There is something else in 1 Corinthians 13:13 which clearly shows that "perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Hope will no longer exist when Christ comes again. Remember, Paul wrote "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three." In other words, faith, hope and love will abide after that which is perfect is come. Now, when Christ comes again, will hope continue? Will we still be hoping to see our Lord once He has come again? Of course not. He will be with us! Therefore, "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 cannot refer to Christ. Notice another of Paul's statements about hope in Romans 8:24: "For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" Hope that is seen is not hope. When I have seen that which I have hoped for, it is no longer hope, it has become reality. So Paul asks... for why does one still hope for what he sees?" Here is a summary of Paul's inspired argument showing "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ's second coming. Paul states that hope will continue after "that which is perfect has come" (1 Cor. 13:13). However, there will be no hope for Christ's coming after He has come (Romans 8:24). Therefore, "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ and His second coming. In 1 Corinthians 13: 11, Paul uses the illustration of the child who grows to the full-grown man. Paul was showing how the infant church was to grow to completion or wholeness with the completed written revelation given by the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself claims to be all-sufficient. Why do we need miraculous gifts now that the Bible is complete? We are now in the time Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, predicted would come. The fact that the Holy Spirit is not operating directly and miraculously today does not mean God is not active in the lives of His people. The providence of God is promised in the Scriptures, and it is present with His people today. God answers prayer through His providence. God can and does overrule in matters, through natural means, without the need for a direct miraculous operation of His Holy Spirit. The Spirit influences today by means of the inspired Word! You say, “But some (not all) of the members of the CHOCD go even further in their defiance of the Holy Spirit, and say that he is not even a person of the Trinity. The Bible is very clear in attributing personhood to the Holy Spirit by stating that the Holy Spirit has a will (I Cor 12:11); that He can be grieved (Eph 4:30); that He would be our Teacher (John 14:26) and more. Many of the CHOCDs even come dangerously close to committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31) by saying that any manifestation of the miraculous in this day and age are all 100% demonic!” Yes, the Holy Spirit is God… You say, “Take it from me, I am living proof that God still performs miracles today. Because in 1979, while a member of the CHOCD… I committed suicide. My family was falling apart, and thanks to the erroneous teachings of the CHOCD, all I had to fall back on was a "religion," not a living, personal relationship with the living Lord of the Universe. So faced with a future of hopelessness and despair, I took an overdose (130+) of sleeping pills, and laid down to die. But because of the mercy and grace of our loving Creator, a minister friend of mine from the Christian Church came by (after the pills had been in my system for nearly six hours!) As he struggled to help me get dressed to go to the hospital (with the rescue squad on its way), I lapsed into a coma. I went stiff as a board and my eyes rolled back in my head and I keeled over. But on the way to the hospital, as my friend prayed for me, I came to! I had no adverse side effects, other than being thirsty and feeling like I hadn't slept in days. The doctors didn't have a clue. My minister friend didn't even know what to think either. My own earthly Father went to the grave suspecting that the whole thing was an effort to get attention. Hey, you don't take over 100 sleeping pills to get anyone's attention but a mortician!” It is unfortunate that your family was “falling apart”… Is this how Satan got to you??? Just because someone “prayed for you” is no proof that this is what caused you to “come to”… Nor is it proof that this caused you to have “no adverse side effects”… This is merely your assertion, nothing more… It is also “unfortunate” that you claim that all you had to fall back on was “religion”… It is obvious that you were not truly converted when you obeyed the gospel, otherwise you would not have made that statement… It appears that you had no root and were not truly converted because you let the things of this world get to you (See Luke 8:13) and tried to kill yourself just as Judas converted and did the same thing as it is written in Matt 27:5, “…He threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.” You say, “So now maybe you can see why I feel so strongly about reaching the poor souls that have fallen prey to the dead theology of the CHOCD. Legalism robs a believer of their Joy! And since the Joy of the Lord is your strength (Nehemiah 8:10), then legalism is a parasite that will sap you of your ability to stand when the storms of life come your way. If the CHOCD wants to be a TRUE representation of the New Testament Church, then they must embrace that which the original church embraced. I am grateful for the basic biblical foundation that I received while in the CHOCD, but even more grateful that Jesus has shown me a "more excellent way!"” You have not proven that 1. The church of Christ has a “dead theology”; nor that 2. They are legalists; nor that 3. The church of Christ is “not” a TRUE representation of the New Testament church, so your conclusions are false and are to be rejected… You say, “Conclusions: Their Tactics The CHOCD uses four main tactics in debating their pet doctrines. These tactics are generally used by all cults. They are: 1. Change the subject 2. Take scripture out of context 3. Straw man arguments 4. Ad hominem attacks (attacking you instead of the issue) The way to counter these tactics is very simple: Stay on the subject until you are allowed to make your point! And remember, your opinion is no better than their opinion. Base all of your conclusions on the Final Authority… God's Word!” I can assure you that: 1. I have not changed the subject… 2. I have not taken “scripture out of context”… 3. I am not guilty of “straw man arguments”… 4. I have not attacked “you instead of the issue”… You say, “Are They A Cult? Years ago the Lord gave us an acronym for cults: C. Claim to be The Only True Christians U. Unorthodox Extra-biblical Revelation L. Lying Leaders (History/Doctrine) T. THE Way (Salvation is found only in their organization) S. Salvation By Works (obedience to ordinances such as baptism) As you can see the only area that the CHOCD doesn't qualify for the title is that they don't have any unorthodox extra-biblical revelation that they would put on par with God's Word. But, they do: 1. Claim to be the Only True Christians 2. Lie about their history, by claiming that they can trace their roots to the day of Pentecost in the second chapter of Acts. They also mislead people about some of their doctrines, by not telling prospective members what they really believe up front (Billy Graham is not a true Christian?). 3. They are the one and only true "Body of Christ." No one goes to the Father outside of their denomination! 4. Their salvation occurs the moment they "DO" their part and get baptized. And you must recognize that it is the baptism that remits your sins, or it is of no effect!” Belief of and obedience to the Word of God is the difference between the church of Christ and your denominational world Brian… Since the church for which Christ died (Acts 20:28) is not a denomination, and since God adds the saved to the church (Acts 2:47), and since all the saved are in the church, which is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:21-23), it is correct to say, "We (in the church of Christ) are Christians only, and the only Christians." This claim is neither bigoted nor prejudicial. It is, on the other hand, respectful of truth (John 8:32). To imply that we are not the only Christians is to imply that there are Christians in all churches. To believe this, one would have to believe that one church is as good as another; and to believe this, one would have to deny that the Lord has only one church. The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:1-4), and "Christians only" means that we are not a part of your denominational world with its names, creeds, and doctrines. The church of Christ is emphatically not a cult. Out of nine common defining characteristics of cults, the church of Christ of which I am a member does not even practice one. The church of Christ is not a manipulative, harmful, brainwashed, deceptive, man-made organization. Rather, it is a group of sincere Christians who are trying their best to serve God, to love their fellow man, and to go to heaven when this life is over and I challenge you to prove otherwise… You say, “Closing Comments So are they a cult? No. Are they as close as you can get to the edge of that perilous pit without falling in? Based on the Word of God, I would say an emphatic "YES!" If you are a member of the CHOCD, please seek the Lord's help in attaining true freedom in Christ. You might start by reading the book of Galatians.” Brian, do you think that we are NOT under any sort of "law" in the New Testament??? The Bible plainly teaches we are "under law to Christ" (1 Cor. 9:21). The Bible also teaches that we humans are free moral agents. God has set before us a blessing and a curse -- a blessing if we OBEY His commands, and a CURSE if we choose to DISOBEY (Deut. 11:26-28; Rom. 2:6-9). The Bible also says: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it." (2 John 6). If you say that we are NOT under law anymore, then you need to read more of the New Testament. The Bible says, under the New Covenant (which is the New Testament), ONLY those with God's law in their hearts are the people of God. How then can we have the law of God written on our hearts? By hearing His word. Each of us should ask ourselves: Is the law of God being written on my heart? If it is, it will not be by accident. Paul told the believers at Corinth that they were a letter of Christ, "written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." (2 Cor. 3:2-3). James tells us that we must receive the word of God into our hearts like a seed so it can produce fruit in our lives: "Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:21-25). Romans chapter 8 does not give us freedom as children of God to live any way we please. Romans 8:14 says that "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Christian freedom IS based upon law, the law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21), and upon order or enforcement of that law, effected through OBEDIENCE. (Heb. 5:9; Jn. 8:36). You say, “If you have a loved one in the CHOCD (especially the International CHOC), please do all that is within your realm of influence to reach them.” My personal relationship with Jesus Christ has been one of great sorrows but even greater joys. Ironically, when I became a member of the CHOCD, my father's side of the family basically disowned me because they were mostly atheists. But then when I left the CHOCD, I became the "black sheep of the family" on my mother's side, because they were all from the CHOCD! But I have never regretted the decision, and I never will. The love, joy and peace that I have found in a personal intimate relationship with Jesus, far surpasses what any list of "DOs and DON'Ts" could ever offer!” Obedience to God is REQUIRED of his servants. (See Romans 16:26). How different is this from people who say that we don't have to keep any law. The Bible says that we are under law, "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) and the New Testament writers obviously thought that we could keep it. Paul told Timothy that the Scriptures make the man of God "perfect". This word indicates the child of God is made complete by the Word. One will never be complete spiritually by heeding man's doctrines, creeds, catechisms and opinions. Paul then says the man of God will be "thoroughly furnished unto all good works". That is, he will be equipped with what he needs to serve God faithfully. He knows what his Father requires of him, and he gladly performs it with gratitude for the mercy and grace shown to him. You say, “Our biggest concern for our brothers and sisters in the CHOCD is the snare of legalism. The CHOCD seems to be more concerned with the length of your hair than they are the condition of your heart. They tend to strain gnats and swallow camels. They seem to be more concerned with peripheral things and miss the weightier matters. I have seen CHOCDs that knew some members were molesting members of the church and nothing was done about it, but GOD FORBID if anyone puts up a Christmas tree! There just doesn't seem to be any balance. The CHOCD claims to be an exact duplicate of the original New Testament church. When you point out how radically different they really are from the original NT church, they blow it off and say, “That was then, this is now.” Well, then don’t claim to be a duplicate of the early church. Facsimile? Maybe. Duplicate? No way.” How do we know that we have fellowship with Jesus??? The Apostle John gives us the answer in 1 John 2:3, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." Keeping His commandments is NOT hard for John also says in 1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." The TEST of knowing Jesus is KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS and we are COMMANDED to 1. Believe the gospel, 2. Repent of our sins, 3. Confess our Faith in the gospel, 4. Be Baptized FOR the remission of our sins, 5. And to be Faithful until death. Obedience to the gospel is the easy part, remaining a Christian and working out your salvation with "fear and trembling" and "bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ". (2 Corinthians 10:5) is the hard part. You say, “If the CHOCD is a duplicate of the original church (and they “speak where the Bible speaks, and they are silent where the Bible is silent") then why don't they: Greet one another with a Holy Kiss? Romans 16:16 says, “Salute one another with an holy kiss.” This was only a custom and is not a commandment that one must observe… You say, “Why don't they have signs following them? Jesus said in Mark 16:17-20, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” If you would have continued to verse 20 you would have your answer… Signs were given to confirm the word for God says, “…the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs…” You say, “Why don’t they sell all of their belongings and share everything with each other? Like in Acts 2:45, “And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” This is not necessary… Nor is it a commandment that we sell all of our possessions and goods… You say, “Why do they forbid to speak in tongues? I Corinthians 14:39 says, “Brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.” Because as I have explained earlier spiritual gifts have ceased… You say, “When someone is sick in your congregation, do the Elders come over and anoint the sick with oil and pray for healing? James 5:14 asks, “Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.” We do not need to “anoint” someone with “oil” in order for them to be healed… If you will merely look at verse 15, it is the “prayer of faith” that saves, not the “anointing with oil” for it is written, “And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” Also in James 5:16, “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” You say, “Why don’t you meet together, everyday like the early church did? Acts 2:46, “Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts.” First, there is no “temple” where we can meet “daily”… Second, this was never given as a commandment that we meet “daily” in order to serve God… You say, “The fact is the CHOCD sometimes speaks where the Bible speaks and sometimes they are silent when the Bible is silent. The problem is that they are inconsistent. When you ask them if they “Greet one another with a holy kiss,” they will say, “that was just a mid-eastern custom.” But if you ask them if “it is a shame for a woman to cut her hair,” then that is a COMMANDMENT!” I can assure you it is not a “commandment” for a woman to keep her hair long… If a woman wants to have short hair, that is her prerogative… You say, “The bottom line is that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. It's all about what JESUS did on the cross, not what somebody does in some puddle of water. It's the blood that remits sin, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Even if baptism was essential, 99% of the protestant church is baptized, so like Hebrews 6 says, let's move on! We baptize every single new believer, just like the Lord told us to. But after the baptism, we teach the new convert to move on to maturity. Why keep looking back at your baptism, when you should be looking forward to Jesus. Too many churches concentrate on the Body of Christ (the church) instead of its Head. It's all about JESUS!” Jesus says: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." (Matt 10:34) Rev 19:15-16 "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Rev 19:21 "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse." What is the SWORD? Eph 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;" This is what happened to the man who thought that he didn't have to do anything and was a coward and DID NOT DO what God had told him to do in His Word. This is someone who claims that he is saved by “faith alone in what Jesus did on the Cross” and did not do the things required by Him in order to be saved… You say, “TO MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST: If you can serve the Lord with all your heart in the CHOCD and stay strong in Him until the day you die, then stay in the CHOCD. The web site is not for you, then. It is for people who are in the CHOCD that are looking for more of Jesus. They are tired of a religion, and want a true, deep, sincere relationship with God. So if you have been wondering, “Is this all there is?” The answer is, no. Jesus has a lot more for you than just a "religion." He wants to have a real, vital, genuine relationship with you, and it is just a prayer away!!” Does saying a prayer save someone??? Let's see if this is true: Many like you Brian believe that all that is necessary to be saved is to say, "I accept Christ as my personal savior." This is true if one is willing to accept Him and obey his will, but only saying I accept Christ as savior, without repentance, confession and baptism is NOT in accordance with the Word of God. Consider this, if one is saved without baptism one is saved outside of Christ. Galatians 3:27 says, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." People today teach many things which are NOT in accordance with God's word. I would encourage you to study diligently the book of Acts. This book contains many examples of people becoming Christians. Your soul is at stake here so it should be of great importance to you to search the scriptures to see what is truth and what is error. In The great commission Jesus told the disciples to teach all nations and that people needed to Believe, Repent, and be Baptized to be saved (Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:46,47). There is NOT ONE word said about an alien sinner praying for the Lord to save him. In the sermon on the Mount Jesus said, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matt. 7:21). This teaches that God WILL NOT forgive in answer to the sinner's prayer but that He wants men to do his will. The will of Christ is found in the Great Commission requiring steps to be taken for one to be saved. In the book of Acts we have many cases of conversion recorded. NOT ONE OF THEM were told to pray the sinners prayer to be forgiven. Someone may ask, Wasn't Simon told to repent and pray that the thought of his heart might be forgiven him? (Acts 8:22). Yes, but Simon is a case of an erring child of God and such a one is always told to repent, confess sins, and pray for forgiveness. Simon had believed, been baptized, and continued with the disciples for some time before he erred by trying to buy the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:13-18). Another may ask about the prayers of Cornelius being heard as recorded in Acts 10:1-4. It is not a matter of prayer being heard but of God forgiving in answer to prayer. Cornelius was told to send for Peter who would tell him "words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." (Acts 11:14). After he was taught he was COMMANDED to be baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:48). It is safe to say that NO ALIEN SINNER in the first century was ever told to pray for forgiveness. Romans 10:13 states, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." However, this is NOT a justification of praying a sinner's prayer. There are three questions asked about this in verse 14: 1) "And how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? 2) And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? 3) And how shall they hear without a preacher?" To call on the name of the Lord one has to have heard the word because "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:17). How did people respond to the gospel message preached to them? They cried out "what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37) and were told to "Repent and be Baptized" (Acts 2:38). According to Acts 2:21 this is calling on the name of the Lord to be saved. It is NOT a prayer. It is Hearing, Believing, Repenting and being Baptized. Paul knew this because Ananias came into the house where he was down praying and told him "And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). Here is one praying the sinner's prayer and had been praying it for three days but was told that instead of tarrying around praying he needed to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins. You see the only way to get into the death of Christ is to be baptized into his death (Rom. 6:3). You DO NOT get into the death of Christ by praying the sinner's prayer. In contrast you do have the blood to cleanse if, as an erring child of God, you confess your sins and pray for forgiveness (1 John 1:7-9). You who preach the praying of the sinner's prayer are MIXED UP on the teaching of the scriptures. Jesus gave a parable in Luke 18:9-14 of a Pharisee and a Publican praying. The Pharisee told God how good he was while the Publican "smote on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." The Lord said he was justified rather than the Pharisee. Now this is NOT an example of conversion by the sinner's prayer. These were both children of God under the law of Moses and so fall into the category of erring children. Such are to repent and pray for forgiveness (Acts 8:22-24). God is NO respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34-35). The people of the first century had to Believe, Repent, Confess and be Baptized to be saved which are same things we have to do to be saved. To be a Christian, one must OBEY FROM THE HEART! What must he obey? "THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE." (Romans 6:17-18). Of a truth, this doctrine or teaching implies commandments given from on high, and requires that one OBEY to be free from sin. For Christ and those who love the truth in Him, [name omitted]
KJV Scriptures Used
Read each passage in its chapter and compare the Scriptures together.