The Lord’s Supper as a memorial
Claim examined: Baptism and conversion
Scriptural Answer
To whom it may concern, Here is Part 2 of 2. My reply: Here once again, you make an assertion which you cannot prove in that you state "Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision". Once again I challenge you to prove it!!! I also challenge you to prove where circumcision in the New Testament = baptism. You say that "there was a New Covenant in the communion supper" however, The Lord's Supper as stated in Luke 22:20 has NOTHING to do with salvation. The Lord's Supper is a Memorial Service and we partake of the bread and the fruit of the vine in order to remember Jesus and to proclaim His death until He returns. (See 1 Corinthians 11:26). You said earlier "baptism is… it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5)," Now you say "in baptism no blood is shed", please make up your mind. If in baptism Christ's blood is applied to our soul (and it is) then baptism IS the point where our sins are WASHED AWAY. Christ shed His blood when He died and we are baptized INTO His death. (Romans 6:3). Get it??? You wrote: "If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 13:3) and the work of God (John 6:28)." My reply: Baptism is NOT a covenant sign. The circumcision in Colossians 2:12, does NOT refer to Old Testament circumcision but rather to circumcision of the heart, the cutting off of the old man of sin. That is the reason that one who is a Jew now "is not one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God," (Romans 2:28-29). This is the New Covenant sign, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28). You wrote: "Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." What is the Gospel? It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here." My reply: The Gospel = Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Baptism has three things in common with the gospel, a Death, a Burial and a Resurrection. Jesus blood was shed in his death (John 19:31-34) and baptism puts one into His death. (Romans 6:3-4). It is in Baptism that one OBEYS the gospel. God's vengeance will be on those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL. (2 Thessalonians 1:8). It is from Baptism that one is resurrected to a new life. (Romans 6:4). One is NOT a child of God UNTIL they have OBEYED the gospel. You wrote: "Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation." My reply: Why did Paul say he did not come to baptize in 1 Corinthians 1:17? Two reasons: (1) Because apostles were sent to disseminate the Christian message for the first time in human history. The response of the individual is up to that individual. Obviously, Paul wanted everyone to believe AND be baptized to be saved. But that was not his assigned mission - he was sent to preach. It's up to God to give the increase (1 Corinthians 3:6). (2) Paul states explicitly why he was glad he didn't baptize very many personally: "lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name" (vs. 15). In other words, baptism was so essential to a proper response to the gospel that he was glad that, since the Corinthians were lining up behind personalities, he had not baptized anymore than he did lest they give their allegiance to him rather than Christ. You wrote: "Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality." My reply: The reception of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism by Cornelius had absolutely NOTHING to do with his salvation! Holy Spirit baptism was God's way of proving to the Jews that Gentiles were likewise fit candidates for salvation. The Gentile reception of the Holy Spirit not only PRECEDED their baptism, it PRECEDED their belief! For in Acts 11:15, Luke used very precise language when he stated, "And as I began to speak…" Peter was just beginning to preach the words which would tell them what to do to be saved but was interrupted by God baptizing the Gentiles in the Spirit. So at that point they had NOT YET heard the "words by which you and all your household will be saved" (11:14). They had NOT YET believed since faith comes by hearing God's words (Rom. 10:17). God had to put His stamp of approval upon Gentiles to demonstrate to the Jewish church that Gentiles had a right to hear the gospel as well. Only AFTER He did this could the Gentiles then proceed to hear the gospel and become Christians by responding with faith and baptism. Notice that this text actually VERIFIES the necessity of water baptism to the conversion event. After having divinely demonstrated Gentile eligibility for salvation, Peter asks a question that has the import of asking whether anyone can offer any reason why Gentiles should not be allowed to become Christians: "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Acts 10:47). If your doctrine of "faith only" is correct, Peter SHOULD HAVE ASKED, "Can anyone give any reason why these Gentiles should not be allowed to believe (or accept Jesus as their savior)?" INSTEAD, Peter was pinpointing the EXACT moment a person becomes a Christian! He was saying that God's direct authentication of Gentile eligibility through Holy Spirit baptism was sufficient PROOF that Gentiles should be allowed to become converts. So - "bring on the water" - a COMMAND (Acts 10:48)! If the Gentiles were ALREADY Christians, WHY would Peter bring to a head the Gentile eligibility issue in terms of water baptism? Everything prior to that point was driving toward the conclusion that Gentiles could become Christians and enter the church just as Jews could. That fact had to be PROVEN before the Gentiles actually were permitted to become Christians. You wrote: "Let's Suppose...Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is." My reply: The argument that one is saved before baptism is a lie! It originates from the father of lies who was a murderer from the beginning and in whom is no truth. You who teach that one is saved before and without baptism wrest the Scriptures to your own destruction. You ADD the word [NOT] to 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16. For example, some falsely teach that: Those who believe and are [NOT] baptized shall be saved; Baptism is [NOT] for the remission of sins; Baptism does [NOT] wash away sin; Baptism does [NOT] save us. By adding the word [NOT] you who do so, follow the footsteps of the Devil. God said if Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, they would surely die (Gen 2:17). The Devil added one word, the word [NOT]. He said they would [NOT] surely die (Gen 3:4). Adam and Eve sinned and were separated from God because of the addition of this one word. If today you listen to and accept this one word [NOT] as a part of these passages, you too will sin and be separated from God!!! Anyone who accepts this false teaching directly contradicts the words of our Lord, the very words by which you will one day be judged. (John 12:48). You wrote: "Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?" My reply: People who refuse to accept God's WORD, are always throwing this type of ridiculous hypothetical situation at us, "What if a person decides to be Baptized into Jesus but are then immediately killed by a speeding camel?" etc..., etc... Well can I ask you, What about the person who would have 'Prayed Jesus into their heart' but were tragically struck down and killed by that same speeding camel? What about them? Only the Scriptures prove doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16). The question has always been "What must I do..." The response has always biblically been baptism. Acts 4:12 gives us the only name under heaven by which we may be saved. Don't be fooled by a hypothetical doctrine, which CANNOT and DOES NOT accept the truth of God's WORD. You DO NOT believe God's WORD, Mark 16:16, (or any of the other passages that say that baptism is a requirement for salvation) but instead you perpetrate this LIE, as you defile the WORD of God and change it to say; " Whoever believes is saved, without being baptized because God is so merciful that He will allow them into paradise even though they didn't have a chance to Obey because they were killed prior to being baptized. But the God of the universe who says that His Word is PERFECT declares that; "Whoever believes and is baptized, WILL BE SAVED..." You wrote: "Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4." My reply: Did the apostle James say that faith WITHOUT works is DEAD??? (See James 2:20, 26). The law being spoken of by Paul in Galatians 2:21 and 5:4 was the law of Moses and says nothing about baptism not being necessary for salvation. You wrote: "All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly. Baptism Verses John 3:5, "Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced. It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process. I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself." My reply: Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus that in order to enter the kingdom of God, one had to be born again (A spiritual birth and not a physical birth) by water (and where I come from, water means water) and the Spirit (which is the Word of God) in order to enter the kingdom. Emphasis in Parens mine. Water = Baptism; Spirit = God's Word; See the following passages: 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Corinthians 4:15, Ephesians 6:17. You wrote: "Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized." My reply: Does Acts 2:38 say one is to "repent" AND "be baptized" FOR the remission of sins? Yes or No??? If the doctrine of "faith only" were not at stake and people were not already biased against a simple reading of the Bible, the role of baptism would have been accepted without question. For example, if Mark 16:16 said, "He who believes and is baptized shall receive one million dollars. He who disbelieves shall go to jail," people would be falling all over themselves to be baptized! You wrote: "1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB). What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart." My reply: In Galatians 2:20, Paul says that he was "crucified with Christ." When was he "crucified with Christ?" The answer to this question can be found in Romans 6:6 where we are "UNITED TOGETHER in the LIKENESS of HIS DEATH." (Emphasis mine). Where did Jesus shed his blood? In his DEATH of course. Heb 9:14 says, "how much more shall the BLOOD OF CHRIST, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?" (Emphasis mine [initials omitted]). Notice how this is also said of baptism in 1 Peter 3:21, "There is also an antitype which now saves us--BAPTISM (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (Emphasis mine [initials omitted]). We are therefore united with Jesus blood in the waters of baptism. You wrote: "Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name." My reply: Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins" in Acts 22:16. Here baptism is said to WASH AWAY SIN. If you were not so biased with your doctrine of faith only, you would have no problem seeing that this verse teaches that sins are washed away in the waters of baptism. You wrote: "Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage." My reply: There is NO figurative language here at all. One obeys the gospel when they are baptized INTO Christ. There are only 2 passages in the New Testament that show how one gets INTO Christ and both of them involve baptism. (See Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:26-27). You wrote: "Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ." My reply: If the blood of Christ saves (and it does) then how do you say that blood is applied to our soul? Is it by faith only? Or is the blood of Christ applied to our soul when we OBEY Christ (See Hebrews 5:9) in being baptized INTO His death? (See Romans 6:3). The blood of Christ is said to be "for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28) and baptism is also said to be "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). You wrote: "Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here." My reply: Galatians 3:27 tells us we are baptized into Christ and put Him on in baptism. Once we've been baptized INTO Him and have put Him on, we are IN CHRIST. Galatians 3:27 says, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Can one be saved outside of Christ? No, one must be saved IN CHRIST. Baptism IS the final step of faith that puts me INTO Christ. You wrote: "Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12)." My reply: Jesus said that one who believes AND is baptized WILL BE SAVED!!! The Samaritans who heard the gospel "believed" and "WERE BAPTIZED" (Acts 8:12). "And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were BAPTIZED" (Acts 18:8). When Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian, he believed and was BAPTIZED (Acts 8:35-39). When the hearers on Pentecost believed in Jesus they asked what they should do. Peter told them to repent AND be BAPTIZED FOR the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:36-38). The word of God shows that "faith only" FALLS SHORT of what God requires. Please note the following concerning what baptism does: - Baptism destroys the old man (Romans 6:3-4) - Baptism creates a new man (Romans 6:3-4) - Baptism washes away sin (Acts 22:16) - Baptism puts all into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) - Baptism puts one into Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) - Baptism allows one to be added to the church (Acts 2:40-47) - Baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21) As can clearly be seen, baptism creates a permanent change. Baptism IS necessary for salvation. What arrogance for man to think that he can change the requirements of God! You wrote: "One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary? My reply: When all men's arguments fall, the Bible's teaching on Baptism is still the same. Acts 2:38 still teaches Baptism is FOR the remission of sins, Acts 22:16 still teaches Baptism WASHES AWAY sins, Mark 16:16 still teaches "He who Believes AND is Baptized WILL BE SAVED". 1 Corinthians 12:13 still teaches that Baptism puts us INTO the body of Christ, Galatians 3:27 still teaches Baptism puts us INTO Christ, Romans 6:3-4 still teaches Baptism puts us INTO the DEATH of Christ, Colossians 2:12-13 still teaches that thru Baptism we obtain NEWNESS of life, 1 Peter 3:21 still teaches that Baptism SAVES us. The first time the gospel was preached, "then those who gladly received his word were Baptized (Acts 2:41). A Christian,
KJV Scriptures Used
Read each passage in its chapter and compare the Scriptures together.